Burning Justice (TINYSTAR'S TRIAL)

Hello, hi everyone. This is the plotting topic for "Burning Justice", a follow up to the August Gather's happenings. This is my first large-ish plot I'm trying to run.

A few disclaimers first:
1. Leaders can be demoted by clan majority. (Source: Suma)
2. We are going to try to reduce this to as little salt as possible. Less salt than a saltine cracker pls.
3. Let's work together to have a fun plot that ultimately makes SkyClan stronger.

Now, in this spoiler is a TLDR for this whole plot:

Spoiler:

So, below I will lay out a few options. Please select your top choice in the poll, but post below if you have any additions or second choices.

Option One: (My Preference)
- Burningsun retrieves Finchstar from WindClan and humbly asks him to come before SkyClan and tell them more in detail what Sparrowpaw told him.
- Burningsun will demand Tinystar stand trial in front of the clan and explain the story from his perspective.
- Burningsun will ask Mintwhisker to give her perspective.
- Burnigsun allows the clan to ask Tinystar questions about this situation.
- Burningsun will make the suggestion to the clan that Tinystar temporarily be demoted to Deputy. (Not lose his title or lives) While Mistyrain leads the clan. After a few moons, the clan can vote to reinstate him as Leader.

Option Two:
- Burningsun organizes Option One, but with all of the medicine cats to decide his fate.

Option Three:
- Burningsun does the forementioned trial aspect, but instead, demands Tinystar give up a life in exchange for Sparrowpaw's.




I tried coming up with more guys, but I want to avoid a total revolution because I am trying to avoid Burningsun being exiled. I really, really don't want her being exiled. Option One and Three can be done without Finchstar, I guess, if this will avoid her exile.

I reserve the right to back out of this plot.

I really like option one, possibly without Finch though, since this is such a SkC-centered plot. With option two, it seems less fun because it doesn't include most of SkC and we're here for that SkC drama

My one hiccup is that I wasn't under the impression that Sparrowpaw attempted to kill Mintwhisker, at least according to what I read in the Moonstone. It looked more to me like Sparrow was shocked upon waking up, lashed out in desperation to get an honest answer, and then immediately backed away without intent to kill - just anger at being lied to.

Granted, that being said, folks would probably only know the side of the story that the characters involved actually shared, and I wasn't actually involved, so that point may very well be moot. Do we know what was said to the rest of SkyClan about Mint's injury? ^^

My opinion on this is based on the fact that Finchstar's overarching reason for exposing Tinystar's execution was not to stir up drama in SkyClan but to get justice for Sparrowpaw, which was her one wish in death. That being said, I don't think temporarily demoting Tinystar only to let him come back is the solution.

I support the trial, but not the conclusion of Option 1. As an idea, I love the concept of the medicine cats deciding his fate because of what Tinystar said at the gathering ("Stop sticking your nose in SkyClan's business"). It would be the ultimate Nose Sticking, and it would be some great poetic justice. I don't know what the other medicine cats would want in this scenario, but Aspen would be the first to demand one of Tinystar's lives. 

That being said, I think that the best way to fulfill the desire for justice is to take one of Tiny's lives. I think that it would also help his image. Imagine watching him silently accept the deathberries in front of all of SkyClan as retribution. Imagine word getting back to the other leaders that he sacrificed a life for Sparrowpaw's when the other option was demotion. That feels pretty apologetic to me. Tinystar has a little bit of an image problem, and to lose a life to answer for his actions would be a really good way to show the world it's resolved and done with. It's an extremely light punishment (considering Jaystar lost every single one for a non-violent breach of the code), and I think that no matter who picks the decision, medicine cats or SkyClan, it'll be the right one to make in terms of the plot. 

Of course, out of character, this works out for Ice because she doesn't have to give up leadership, just a life (which Tiny still has quite a few of). It works out for everybody involved the way I see it. 

TL;DR - Tinystar should lose a life for what he did because in the grand scheme of things it's a light punishment that still feels more weighty and permanent than just temporarily losing rank. I also think that agreeing to the terms would make him look more noble  in the eyes of the clan. It's the right amount of justice, and Ice doesn't have to relinquish leadership as a result.

I 100% disagree with having cats from outside off SkC be part of this. It's a clan affair and should stay that way, but no matter what, cats from outside of the clan will be against Tiny (which is understandable ofc). Obviously, part of Option 1 (such as the clan getting to question him) would be nice, so mashing some ideas from each might be the best option.

I do however very much like option 3 :)

I'm with Suma on that aspect since I have the same impression. So my suggestion is that that event is edited in the spoiler part to avoid confusion if what we think is right :3 If it is not, then don't mind us cx

Now, regarding the ideas, I personally voted for the first one and I disaggree with Drippy. Bringing just Finchstar doesn't take away the Skyclan-centered plot and it will give more clarity to the trial. Also, it makes sense Burning would want to be sure on the facts before calling for a trial and her best source is, indeed, Finchstar since he wasn't directly involved and will give the more objective side of the story, unlike Tiny and Mint who most likely supported the execution (this is what I think Burning will think when asking Finch to come to the clan).

Last edit: Grizzly posted before me and I would like to add one more thing. I agree that one life seems like a light punishment compared to Jaystar's crime (non-violent one) but taking away Tiny from leadership just to come back also seems not too fair? I would suggest both, tbh, if cats would actually indeed want justice for both Sparrowpaw's life and how much time Tiny has been seen to abuse his power in a way anyone who is against him would be immediately yeeted. So yeah, in summary, I think a good option is the first one but instead of just staying as deputy for a while and then come back, add to that punishment the taking of one life. That way Tiny may look regretful too to his clanmates for all what he did (if he's truly sorry? Tbh, I think he's ic but that is just my impression).

Very rough idea but the trial should be starclan's, not skyclan's. SkyClan doesn't have the right after most of us just watched him kill her without responding. It's cowardly that way. I think Tinystar needs a trial by fire a la Crowstar and Jaystar and SkyClan can be just as implicated as he is for not doing anything to stop it.

You want real consequences? Bad actions hurt the people around you and all of SkC should probably suffer too. Maybe then leaders won't do crazy things, huh? We can incorporate the incomplete Jaws plot and rework it to fit the current circumstances as well as throwing in plagues and invaders depending on how much planning one wants to do for this.

TL;DR it's not the clan's right to punish Tiny, it's StarClan's

otherwise Tiny needs to initiate his own trial if Burning doesn't wanna get booted


ALSO an edit: "doesn't have the right" doesn't literally mean SkyClan's rpers are bound by blood to do whatever Ice says. I just meant that it's really late for them to suddenly grow a spine is all.

Okay, I'll put my input. Tbh, considering Tiny's actions, how he acted in the Gathering and his real thoughts on the Sparrowpaw, why would he even come with his own trial? Even if Jaystar called him out, Tiny never respected him so there's no reason for him to listen to Jaystar's suggestion on the trial. He was not truly regretful of his actions but believes it is just in the past (taking what he said in the Gathering).

On the other hand, yes, it is more reasonable someone of his clan, like Burning and other cats, suggest a proper trial. He can refuse or accept depending on how things are roleplayed out. There's a risk of getting yeeted but at the same, the rest of the clans will know of what Tinystar is doing: exiling his cats just because they want justice, a voice to speak up and stand against crimes. Being leader does not make you invincible, sadly and though Skyclan cats who stands up against him may have consequences, yeeting his cats will ALSO have consequences for Tinystar.

Regarding Sun's comment: the Clan has the right to stand up against its leader if they want. Roleplaying is free and though leadership it is indeed an important role that must be filled by someone active, IC reasons are enough for demotion if its the case. Let's take SC of the books. SC cats literally drove Brokenstar away with its follower because they thought he wasn't the best for leadership. It's in canon, it can happen here too.
About Starclan, yeah sure, that is a thing here. I made a trial for Jaystar in Starclan, left his fate to dice but that was in character for him. He was regretful, the blame was always on him and after Mintwhisker spilt the truth, it was too much for him. He confessed everything to his deputy and MC, losing their respect and then made his journey to be judged. Tinystar, on the other hand, is not reall regretful. At least not for killing Sparrowpaw but all the backlash he might get now (this last part is my impression) so it wouldn't make sense he will think it was his idea to be judged by Starclan either.

Just to clear things up on the Sparrowpaw attacking Mintwhisker thing, it was very much a non lethal confrontation. Sparrowpaw was just upset that a cat, she practically considered a sudo-mother at one point, killed her dad. She was upset and confused and at that moment lashed out and ran. It was meant as a clear meaning of rejection.

As for this... I love all these options. They all sound like great fun 8D

Excuse me if this is jumbled. Mind is jumbly today.

Ice- I have heard and digested your opinion on this being 100% SkyClan, and I understand that is what you want. However, you said yourself in Discord to do what your character would do and not what you want as an RPer. I am simply trying to play my character how she would be- to not do it would be literally going against what you say (but in your favor). As Jay and myself have said, the reasoning for Finchstar is simply because we literally cannot physically have Sparrowpaw present. HOWEVER, Finchstar will not have any say in what actually happens. He is literally just there to tell the story. This does not take away from it being a SkyClan centered plot.

Suma and Jay- Edited.  I twas mistaken.

So compiling everything said above-

BUT THE ULTIMATE OPTION THAT MAKES EVERYONE HAPPY! (No Finchstar and lowkey treason)

ULTIMATE OPTION 1: Burningsun goes to the Moonstone and gets the story from Sparrowpaw herself and acts as the representative  for Sparrowpaw. Burningsun tells Sparrowpaw's story. Mintwhisker and Tinystar tell their side. Questioning. Deathberries.

ULTIMATE OPTION 2: Burningsun goes to the Moonstone and gets the story from Sparrowpaw herself and acts as the representative for Sparrowpaw. Burningsun tells Sparrowpaw's story. Mintwhisker and Tinystar tell their side. Questioning. Deathberries + temp demotion.

(StarClan visit was an option approved by staff.)


.................... And finally, I make my final plea to Ice because I 98% most likely will not go with this plot if I can not get a guarentee she will not be exiled.

Ice, if Tinystar goes around and exiles Burningsun who simply wanted justice to right SkyClan in the eyes of StarClan and the other clans, he proves that he had not changed from his tyrant behavior at all. Like I mentioned, Burningsun is not going to insult him and is simply acting out of her sense of justice. If Burningsun is exiled, she would go to WindClan and tell Finchstar (because she would feel like he would be willing to help her escape his tyranny) and I feel as if that would create a bigger issue for SkyClan. I don't want a war for SkyClan, and I know you don't either. Please don't take this as a threat- I am simply laying out the plot. Since we are laying out a lot of this plot to pre-determined outcomes, I feel as if it is only fair that my character's is too. Tinystar can go ahead mistreat her, give her in camp confinement, ect. But even a harsh punishment like stripping her name would be in bad image. Though, I suppose if you insist I'll accept a name strip over exile.

I guess I approve of option 2, the Finch one.

I personally do not think this is something that Burning needs to go to StarClan (besides to double check). Talking to Finch should be enough imo and other than getting validation from StC themselves, seems not necessary and would just add extra time to this "plot."

As far as her not being exiled... for you, I will make sure she stays in the clan. Honestly, at first, he will want to exile her very much because of the whole Finch thing, but after his death, he'll probably see the situation in a different light, or something of the sorts, and thus not exile her or other possible cats he deems not worthy of his trust. Just know that she will be very high on his "list" of 'cats to keep and eye on.' And I have no clue what he'll do with her (instead of exile), so that'll just have to wait till the topic.

So yes, you have my word that she will not be exiled.

After reading the original plot posts and responses, I've come to yeet my input here if you'll have it. For one, I find it very in character that some cats in SkyClan would want to rebel against Tinystar. He has shown little remorse for his actions, and exiled cats in the past. Now the line between "in character" and "out of character" can get very blurred here. We must remember that this is a roleplaying site, meant to help users have fun and express themselves. Promoting development and growth is our purpose. For this reason, I am 100% supportive of Burningsun holding Tiny on trial. Whether it's StarClan who judges him, or SkyClan themselves. Now, OOC, it's been well known that those in a leadership position have a sort of "plot armor" if you will. They can't die as easily, won't be subject to most things that haunt their clan, and they generally have some control over their clan. This all makes sense, if we had leaders stepping down or dying as frequently as warriors did, we'd of had dozens and dozens of leaders by now. BUT I don't quite think it's fair if a roleplayer (of a leader) can subject his or her clan to their wrath, without subjecting themselves to it as well. As seen with Jaystar. Jaystar commited a crime against StarClan, (having kits with Goldeneye, a medicine cat) and therefore lost almost all his lives for it. This was Jay Bird's decision, and fit well with what Jaystar had done. RiverClan was fine with this, because it showed that Jaystar was just as expendable as the warriors themselves. Jay Bird executed this plot very well. It's quite difficult to roleplay a leader as I have learned during my time as Finchstar. You get at max two years to loose nine lives, you must choose a good reliable deputy who will support the clan after you're gone, and most importantly, you must actively strive for growth and relationship dynamics in your clan.

A good leader isn't a good leader ic, it's a good leader ooc. Take Burntstag for example. Were his morals shining white? No. They were gray. But did his roleplayer, Ripped, provide a habitat for plots and interesting character development? Yes. This was done through a series of things. One was through creativity, but also showing that Burntstag could be just as expendable as those he roleplayed with. It's difficult to do as a leader, I know we all love the leaders we've created, but we also must make them subjects to live itself, just as the rest of our characters are. A leader's personality does not go away when they become leader. Their morals are founded on who they are as a cat. It's difficult, given the ooc pushback that will sometimes happen. But we must stay strong. Tinystar has a personality, and must stick with it. During the beginning of his leadership, he was friendly and soft, but overtime has grown to become hardened. Now this is good development. Again, a good leader is not one with good morals, but one who's roleplayer is actively willing to subject them to the same things his warrior's are subject to. Now I mean no offense when I say this, but it is unfair to exile SkyClan's warriors without the roleplayer's permission, while Tinystar is above the judgement of those very same warriors. Again, Ice, I mean no disrespect. But in order to promote growth in SkyClan, as well as keeping the roleplay realisitc, I do think Tinystar deserves some kind of punishment, and not by his own volition. It completely goes against his personality to subject himself to his own trial. Tinystar showed no remorse about killing Sparrowpaw, his only regret was sullying his image. Now, let's say Burningsun and her followers demand Tinystar loose a life or answer to SkyClan. I think a "yes" to this as Ice, Tinystar's roleplayer, would be in good spirit. It shows that actions have consequences, even as a leader. It makes those with a higher rank seem more down to earth, as well as making Tinystar more dynamic as a character. Now, the way you go about this is your choice, but I don't think it would be in character for Tinystar to willingly come up with a trial on his own volition. Now, if Burningsun is exiled for this, it would be in character, yes. But remember that through this, Tinystar would need to make some sacrifice as well for things to be fair ooc. Leaders are not above the will of their clan, and can be overthrown if needed. We must be careful not to blur the lines between ic and ooc.

Tl;dr, Tinystar would be unwilling to do a trial, as it conflicts with his personality, but eventually could accept one as he'd imagine it would help his image

Again, this is just my opinion, but thank you for reading.